Holy theorycrafting and armoury stalking

v3.3

Just a quickie.

I’m going to reconsider the holy intellect/spirit balance with an eye to taking a couple of hundred spirit off them and adding it to intellect.  I’ve been stalking a lot of holy priests and all have more intellect than spirit.  So the holy numbers will change before I do the gear lists.

I might also extend the fight duration out to 8 minutes from 6 minutes.  If I do this both the discipline and holy numbers will change slightly.

One interesting thing I discovered while checking out the holies is there is two main gearing methods  in use ATM.

Intellect stacking – Just like disc some holies are stacking intellect.  These guys tend to have similar intellect/spirit balances to disc priests.  For example 1500 Int and 900 spirit.  These players have low spell power usually around 2400.

Spirit stacking – These priests are behaving as I expected and stacking carrying intellect and spirit in about equal measures.  They tend to have about 1300 intellect and 1200 spirit.  These priests tend to have much higher spell power at about 3000.

Anyway watch this space regarding slight changes to stat weights.

Gobble gobble.

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15 Responses to Holy theorycrafting and armoury stalking

  1. nuclayer says:

    What do consider stacking specifically?

    Most gear comes with ample Spellpower, Int, Spirit, and usually Haste or Crit.

    I am not sure, given the current content why anyone would prefer to add anything else but more spellpower. I have seen a few blogs where some Disc priests are gemming int because they say it lends to a bubble spam play style. I can tell you I have bubble spammed an entire Heroic Valks fight and had sufficient mana. I don’t gem for anything but spellpower.

    Your numbers on the value of spirit vs int were solid before. If the issue is regen, then you either a new priest or your doing it wrong.

  2. BobTurkey says:

    Sorry i’ve changed stacking to carrying in the second gearing method. Stacking was probably not appropriate.

    I’d tend to agree with taking spellpower by preference. For raid bubble spamming SP is about the only useful stat. Tank healing however gets a lot more value out of crit and haste for throughput.

    Mana regen is really only an issue for Disc in some specific situations. Hard modes with lots of PoH use, when DPS is really weak so the fights are very long, when there is no Replenishment (although this is rarely an issue by itself), and sometimes when your are pushing yourself a bit like using a reduced number of healers.

    It is still possible to run out of mana, but its very unlikely.

    Gobble gobble.

  3. Arrelliana says:

    I am currently carrying 1597 int and 996 spirit and I regularly play both holy and disc. (Ignore the binding light trinket I only equip it because of the item level when I log out for ranking purposes) My spellpower is running around 3100 disc and 3400 holy. Spellpower is still king to me for effective circles/pom/prayer (and I use glyphed prayer). Also spellpower for disc is providing the biggest heals possible which I don’t try to stack haste or crit over each other.

    My philosophy is balance. I do have different back’s to switch between holy and disc but other than that I use the same gear set which is generally the best piece for both spec’s available. I follow a gemming philosophy of spellpower/int/spirit. But I have found that int stacking allowes you to spam more but proper mana management is more valuable than stacking regen/int. Find the lull in the fight where the hymn/shadow fiend combo can be used. Also working out innervates with the druids is a big help. I am fortunate to run in a balanced group so these things are available.

    So I always go red sockets spellpower/ blue spellpower/spirit and yellow spellpower/int. These provide the best balance for me. I use my spec to fit the fight using whichever is needed. If I was strictly discipline I would probably avoid spirt alltogether.

  4. Arrelliana says:

    slight revision of my comment those numbers were from my disc spec/gear.. holy I am carrying 1402 int/1144 spirit and 3494 spellpower with innerfire and spirit buff. Most of the differences are related to the talent bonus of more spirit in holy and more int in disc. I will log this gear set for you bob if you want to check it out. Also I have discarded tier 9 bonus until I pick up my 2 pieces of 258 gear. So this is a max ilevel gear and looking forward to the t10 bonus discussion and 2pct9/2pct10 discussion.

    http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Stormrage&n=Arrelliana

  5. BobTurkey says:

    Thanks for your feedback Arrelliana. I’d advocate balance also.

    I imagine i’ll be heading for 2pcT9 + 2pcT10 initially, but to be honest I am only starting to look at the gear available in ICC.

    The new upgradable tier gear is more attractive than the buy/replace/shard tier gear of T9.

    T10 bonuses are pretty meh I think, but i’m only tank healing about 10% of raid time.

    I’ll theorycraft the bonuses eventually, but I have other stuff to do first (revamping stat weights slightly and gear lists).

    Gobble gobble.

  6. Petrin says:

    Hi Bob,

    One thing you might want to consider- dual specs.

    I am probably your staple “type 1” priest, leaning heavily toward int, because it’s better for a disc/holy dual specced priest. In an ideal world, I’ve have complete sets of gear for each spec, but unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way. I’m really only able to swap out a few pieces, so I need to compromise and find something that works for both specs.

    Type 1 works well for both disc and holy. Your spell power is gimped a little bit as holy, but your regen is fine, thanks to replenishment.

    Type 2 works for holy, but gimps disc setup pretty badly. The additional regen you get from spirit does not make up for the loss of intellect (less crit, rapture, etc).

    And finally, the chips fall where they may. There is simply more “type 1 gear,” around right now, so that’s what people are going with. Bejeweled bracers, Merlin’s robe, etc, all more common than their +spirit counterparts. Most people I know gem either +sp/int or +sp/spirit and it just feels weird to gem them +sp/spirit. Even the new ICC rep ring for healers is type 1.

    What do you think?

  7. BobTurkey says:

    Yeah I realise plenty of priests are gearing like this and its perfectly valid. I’m aiming at the specialist priests who are aiming to maximise their output.

    If priests want to use a disc gear set for holy or holy set for disc it can work just fine. Output will be lower, but at the end of the day experience and skill play a bigger factor that gear anyway.

    Gobble gobble.

  8. Petrin says:

    Oh in that case, I’m pretty sure the int guys guys are banking on replenishment and the extra crit to make up for the loss in spellpower, while the more balanced folks are thinking along the terms of native regen and thoroughput. At this point, heroics are a nonissue.

    I’d be interested to see their other stats, though, especially haste.

    Myself, I don’t want to use an improper set for either spec, but one simply works better for both specs than the other and I have to work with what’s available.

    I probably didn’t answer your question. But if I was either specialist holy priest, that would be my reasoning.

  9. adorno says:

    “I’m aiming at the specialist priests who are aiming to maximise their output.”

    If that’s the case then you should look closer at regen stats and play-style, SP is a pretty weak stat for throughput, I’ve found, due to oom.

    I say this as one of the top ranked disc in terms of disc output, on a number of fights on both WoL and WMO (http://www.wowmeteronline.com/rank/clazz/ehps/pri/8/6/3/3).

    If you’re tank healing then regen might not be an issue, but healing the raid is a mana hog and arguably the best possible place to assign disc — in terms of comparative advantage.

  10. adorno says:

    In terms of holy, I should add, my high int, low SP stats still allow me to be competitive on the WoL rankings.

    I’ve only gone holy a few times, maybe 3 times total in the last couple months, so my getting ranked in the top 10 on WoL shows that these stats are still very strong for holy hps.

    eg:

    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Crusaders'_Coliseum/Faction_Champions_(A)/10H/Holy_Priest/?page=1#p-1973137

    http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Crusaders'_Coliseum/Northrend_Beasts/25N/Holy_Priest/?page=1#p-1973137

  11. adorno says:

    sorry, cant link the rankings that way it seems. Here’s the general link: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/26032/rankings/players/

    From there you can go to healers and find where Ive ranked as holy — the point again is to observer that int > sp is still highly competitive for holy throughput.

  12. BobTurkey says:

    The middle comment didnt work as any comment with more than one link gets held for approval (to prevent spam).

    Its there now though.

    SP is a strong stat for throughput. If you look at my theorycrafting you will see at both SP:MP5 ratios of 2:1 and 0.6:1 the throughput components of intellect are always less than the value assigned to SP. So point-for-point SP > Int.

    I’m not doubting your WoL references, but I suspect that is more related to player skill and experience than gearing preferences.

    There is also no issue with stacking Int as Holy if that is what works for you. My theorycrafting posts are there to provide a guideline on both how to calculate relative value of stats and also an actual value for them for those not interested in theorycrafting themselves.

    Gobble gobble.

  13. adorno says:

    Sure, I know what you’re advocating for relative value, and I have a lot of respect for your theory crafting. I’ve been reading your blog since it took off from dwarf’s.

    So please let me be more clear on my reply. I mean to say that at a static level of skill (my own), I can confidently say that, where the only variable is int vs SP, int will provide more overall throughput than SP in most cases. This is determined by comparing my own results recorded on WoL and WMO.

    Now, as for play style and skill between players: if you’re aiming at HPS and you’re finding that you dont run out of mana while shield-healing the raid, then you ought to spend more mana rather than increase your SP.

  14. Arrelliana says:

    I have a similar philosophy regarding how to gem for regen..
    Are you out of mana at the end of the fight? if no gem throughput

    Are you out of mana at the end of the fight? if yes then
    is shadow fiend on cooldown ? yes.. was shadowfiend used in conjunction with hymn of hope ? yes..
    was a mana pot used? yes
    were all available innervates used? yes

    If the answer to all those questions is yes then you need to gem/enchant for regen for that fight. This can also be accomplished by switching to regen trinkets or flasking for regen instead of regemming for 1 fight.

    IF the answer is no to any of those questions then it isn’t quite time to change up your gearing. I do not like to see straight INT gemming unless all the available tools priests have at their disposal have been used. This includes sniping those innervates from druids early and often.. it is only a 3 min cooldown so coordinate these. If you have used your tools then it is time to do the soft changes first (trinkets/food/flask) then hard changes with gems/enchants/gear choices.

  15. adorno says:

    Not using one’s regen tools appropriately is regrettably novice. I’m talking about pushing best-in-class hps. Which is where I’m at on WoL and WMO.

    Obviously you have to pretty much use everything at your disposal at the right times, all spells and resources included, to rank class 1st on content like earth wind and fire; which is where I’m at on WoL.

    And of course more sp is good for more hps. I want to be able to stack more SP and crit to push higher numbers; the reality however is that I too often drive myself towards oom and have to ease up. There’s just not enough mana to do everything I want to do, and so hps suffers.

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