v3.3
Before I start on mana regeneration there are two other areas I want to skim over spell power (SP) and stamina.
Sections
- Introduction
- Mana regeneration including Spell Power and Stamina
- Mana pool
- Haste rating
- Critical rating
- Summary including LootRank and Pawn values
Spell Power
The 2.0 SP = 1.0 MP5 is very important to the model and adds a lot of sensitivity to it. A number of other stats are calculated based on this ratio and changing it changes their weightings also. This is effectively the ratio of throughput to mana regen (leaning fairly heavily towards throughput) and others have used 1.5:1 an I have previously used 0.6:1.
Spell power MP5 value = 2.0
Holy priest’s spellpower also benefit from Spiritual Guidance (SG), which adds 25% of their spirit as spell power.
Spiritual Guidance Spirit MP5 value = SP MP5 * SG SP bonus * Spirit modifier
Spiritual Guidance Spirit MP5 value = 2.0 * 25% * 1.16
Spirit MP5 value from Spiritual Guidance = 0.58
The Spirit modifier includes the multipliers for Spirit of Redemption (+5%) and Blessing of Kings (+10%).Ā So for each point of spirit on gear you actually gain 1 x 1.05 x 1.1 = 1.16 spirit.
Stamina
Secondly I have plucked a best guess number from the air for a stamina weighting. Stamina is often ignored in gear weighting models but I think this is a mistake. Dead players don’t DPS or heal. Now, having said that, I can not offer a method for calculating a stamina weighting and have instead plucked 0.2 out as a number which gives stamina some weight without getting too heavy.
Stamina MP5 value = 0.2
Mana regeneration
OK, now on to the real topic of this post. There are two parts to this section: mana regeneration based on the 5 second rule; and mana regeneration for holy spec priests with Holy Concentration.
Assumptions:
- Discipline has 1741 Intellect and 1166 Spirit
- Holy has 1417 Intellect and 1272 Spirit
- Both discipline and holy specs have Meditation 3/3 (50% mana regen IS5SR)
- Priests spend 95% of a fight inside the 5 second rule (IS5SR)
- Holy Concentration is has 48% uptime, which requires about 35% raid buffed critical rating
- Holy Concentration regen occurs 100% IS5SR.
Base mana regeneration outside the 5 seconds rule (OS5SR) has this formula (since 3.1):
MP5 = 3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * LevelRegen)
Where LevelRegen is a constant of 0.005575 at level 80.
Base MP5 (OS5SR) is:
- Discipline = 814 MP5
- Holy = 801 MP5
IS5SR MP5 is:
- Discipline = 814 x 50% = 417 MP5
- Holy = 801 x 50% = 400 MP5
Actual MP5, based on 95% IS5SR is MP5 = (5% x OS5SR MP5) + (95% x IS5SR MP5)
- Discipline MP5 = (5% x 814) + (95% x 417) = 427
- Holy MP5 = (5% x 801) + (95% x 400) = 420
To calculate the value of Spirit and Intellect to MP5 we need to calculate the actual MP5 for each spec when 1 Spirit is added and when 1 Intellect is added.
Spirit MP5 value = MP5 (Spirit+1) - MP5 (Spirit)
Spirit MP5 value = (5% x 3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * (Spirit+1) * LevelRegen)) + (95% x (3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * (Spirit+1) * LevelRegen) x 50%)) - (5% x 3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * LevelRegen)) + (95% x (3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * LevelRegen) x 50%))
So plugging the numbers into this formula we end up with:
- Spirit MP5 weighting for Discipline = 0.4272
- Spirit MP5 weighting for Holy = 0.3818
Intellect MP5 value = MP5 (Int+1) - MP5 (Int)
Intellect MP5 value = (5% x 3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int+1) * Spirit * LevelRegen)) + (95% x (3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int+1) * Spirit * LevelRegen) x 50%)) - (5% x 3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * LevelRegen)) + (95% x (3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * LevelRegen) x 50%))
So plugging the numbers into this formula we end up with:
- Intellect MP5 weighting for Discipline = 0.1552
- Intellect MP5 weighting for Holy = 0.1632
Holy Concentration
Holy priests have an additional source of MP5 style mana regeneration from Holy Concentration (HC). This talent gives the player 50% additional mana regeneration for 8 seconds after scoring a critical with Flash Heal, Greater Heal, Binding Heal or Renew.
Given the above calculation for Holy of 420 MP5 OS5SR HC MP5 can be calculated as:
HC MP5 = OS5SR MP5 x 50% additional regen x HC uptime
HC MP5 = 420 x 50% x 48%
Holy Concentration MP5 = 102
Calculation of Holy concentrations addition to Spirit’s MP5 value is similar to the base Spirit MP5 calculation but simplified.
HC Spirit MP5 value = MP5 (Spirit+1) - MP5 (Spirit)
HC Spirit MP5 value = (3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * (Spirit+1) * LevelRegen) x HC regen % x HC uptime %) - (3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * LevelRegen) x HC regen % x HC uptime %)
HC Spirit MP5 value = 0.0924
HC Intellect MP5 value = MP5 (Intellect +1) – MP5 (Intellect)
HC Intellect MP5 value = (3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int+1) * Spirit * LevelRegen) x HC regen % x HC uptime %) - (3 * (0.001 + sqrt(Int) * Spirit * LevelRegen) x HC regen % x HC uptime %)
HC Intellect MP5 value = 0.0395
Summary
Holy Concentration is worth about 110 MP5 at this gearing level.
Discipline have:
- Base Spirit MP5 weighting of 0.4272
- Base Intellect MP5 weighting of 0.1552
Holy have:
- Base Spirit MP5 weighting of 0.3818
- HC Spirit MP5 value = 0.0924
- Base Intellect MP5 weighting of 0.1632
- HC Intellect MP5 value = 0.0395
I’ll bring all the numbers together in a post (or two) at the end.
BobTurkey's blog 
Bobturkey,
I guess I’m somewhat confused with stat weighting. Let me ask you this: when you say “HC Spirit MP5 value = .0849” and “HC Intellect MP5 value = .0507” does this mean that I should have roughly 850 spirit for every 500 intellect? So, for further example a holy priest like myself geared for Icecrown Citadel should have something like 1700 spirit and 1000 intellect (roughly)?
The reason I ask this is because my stat weights are nowhere near this actually. I’ve got about 1558 intellect and 928 spirit.
Here’s my armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Blackrock&n=Hanthion
According to recount I’ve been the top healer in my guild while running TotGC25 for some time with these weights and I was also top healer in Icecrown Citadel 25 last week w/ 4/4 bosses down. I very rarely have mana issues either with my spirit being significantly lower than my intellect.
I mean things seem to be working well for me with my current setup but I’m very inclined to change my stat weights around if you think it will improve my healing even further.
Please let me know if I’m just incorrectly reading how stat weighting works.
Sorry forgot to add something…
Am I just looking at your stat weighting inversely?
So for instance .0849 spirit = 1mp5 and .2097 intellect = 1mp5. This would make more sense in my case anyway.
Ultimately, what I’m trying to figure out is how much spirit and intellect to I need to have?
Can I get away with having no spirit at all? or no intellect at all?
Or should I have some kind of balance like 1.5 intellect for every 1.0 spirit?
Anyway…clearly theorycrafting is not my thing lol. Let me know what you think.
~Hanthion
Hey Bob, hey Hanthion…
I’m also a bit surprised of those numbers, having myself 1341 Int / 1077 unbuffed, and raiding easyly through the first four Icecrown bosses/events.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Suramar&n=Hanzi
Holy numbers seem a bit off to me and since you base your calculations on those, I don’t know what to think about it. Still, since patch 3.2, I’ve followed your numbers and used them to gear myself and they have led me to my stats balance. I don’t have mana issue and the rare times I do, I always have the great combo of Shadowfiend and Hymn of Hope; those two cast successively replenish my mana bar so fast and help my raid fellows too. I don’t use the 21 int/mana restore meta-gem but the 25 sp/2% int, and my head and shoulders enchants are those with critical strike. Furthemore, as a tailor, I use the Lightweave embroidery and not the mana regen one. I start to wonder if this mana regen angle is the best way to approach stats weightings.
I’m also suprised that you’re not taking all raid buffs into account, as they are present all the time in a 25 men raid (such as the 5% crit Boomkin aura), or even the flask and food buffs.
To finish, setting your basic fight duration to 6 minutes is a bit off too. Rawr sets its default duration to 480 seconds. Maybe a number between those two would be a good compromise?
From Part 1:
“Always treat stat weights with caution. There are many opinions on exactly what they should be and arguments on the methods for calculating them. I created these to provide a guide for selecting gear for your healing priest. They are however a guide and gear is only one factor in determining a players ability to perform their role along side experience and skill.
Healing priests can choose to just aim to gear at the highest item level possible and provided they choose appropriate gear (stuff with spell power, intellect, spirit, haste, etc on it) they would be competative with a similarly skilled and experienced priest who selected gear based on these stat weights. This is a bit of a slap in the face for someone who has spent hours fiddling with spreadsheets, but at the end of the day stat weights are about fine tuning gear selection and not the be-all-and-end-all of gearing.”
Stat weights are incredibly subjective. Your play style as well as your Guilds raid ability play a huge part in what works best for you. If your getting by with a HUGE mana pool, and a smaller amount of spirit, then fine; there is no need to stress over this info.
@Hanthion
Unless I am also confused, The HC weights are the ADDITIONAL value of each point of spirit and int when HC is active. If it were me, I wouldn’t be basing my itemization off of HC values…
What we should be looking at (if you’re going to use this model) are the base weights, which assuming that we are going to be gearing for a 2spell power = 1 MP5 ratio (aka 2 throughput = 1 mana regen)
So according to Bob’s #’s
Base: 1 spi = 0.3508 mp5
Base: 1 int = 0.2097 mp5
w/ HC active…
1 spi = 0.3508 + 0.0849 = 0.4357
1 int = 0.2097 + 0.0507 = 0.2604
Again, the HC values are really just to show you what additional benefit you’re getting from the int and spi during an HC proc.
So if you are looking to go with the 2sp = 1mp5 model, your target is 351 spi for every 210 int or roughly a 7:4.2 ratio.
I hope this is helpful š
@Hanthion’s second post
How do you want your priest to be healing in raids?
Longevity: Small heals more often and/or for a longer period of time (int heavy, like your current gearing)
Throughput: Big(ger) Heals less often and/or for a shorter period of time? (Spi heavy since spirit is used in both our regen, and spell power formulas in game)
Somewhere in between? (Bobs model, other models such as those found on elitist jerks. Bob’s leans heavier towards the throughput target, but is still well balanced)
Once you answer that question, you’ll get a better idea of what you want to do. Based on my own personal gear standards I’d say you’re int heavy build is selling you short. Too many priest don’t take into consideration that its OK to run out of mana… as long as it is right at the end of the fight. With that in mind, in order to get the MOST benefit out of your toon, you need to look at this objectively. Do you often run out of mana mid fight? If so you need more mana or more regen. Do you often have tons of mana at the end of a fight? If so you should drop some of your mana stats in favor of some output stats like SP, Haste, Crit. After looking at your armory, I see you use a lot of 20 int gems, and almost no Spell power gems. If i were you, I’d take 3 or 4 of those out in favor of some 12sp 10 int gems, or more to my style some 23 sp gems.
Thanks for the work here Bon; I look forward to the rest of the posts.
Do I misunderstand something, or shouldn’t the HC benefit to spirit be .5 (2 x 25%) rather than .525?
Obviously it’s not a big difference; I ask more to confirm my understanding than to nitpick.
Thanks again.
Nice typo… “Bob”, not “Bon.”. Phone typing.
Curious, I thought this was the section where you previously added Rapture returns for disc (scaling with int)?
Schwaig, Hanzi,
Thanks for the responses. From what you described Schwaig, I would consider myself a very heavily “throughput” type of holy priest. Every talent I have chosen is setup to put out huge numbers during boss fights that require significant AoE healing. On the fights that require little or no AoE healing at all, I switch to my offspec as discipline.
I think of myself as “the safety net” in our raids during AoE boss fights. For instance, on fights like Lord Marrowgar, Twin Valkyrs, or Hodir I spec holy and heal big (3x Flash Heal/Binding Heal, Prayer of Healing, Circle of Healing, Prayer of Mending, repeat) only during the AoE and put out tremendous numbers (8k-9k hps). But on fights like Deathbringer Saurfang, Faction Champions, or Iron Council I spec discipline and again I put out some pretty big numbers…all while having almost no mana issues unless I die and get a battle resurrection in which case I call for an innervate.
I also think a big portion of my success with mana regen can be attributed to me being a blood elf and efficiently using arcane torrent.
That being said, what I am considering now is switching my discipline offspec into holy as well but have it setup as more of a mana regen type holy priest where I can tank heal more effectively and heal steadily throughout the fight instead of just during AoE situations…so now do I choose holy/disc or holy/holy??? lol
@Hanthion – Wow so many questions š
You said – āHC Spirit MP5 value = .0849 and HC Intellect MP5 value = .0507 does this mean that I should have roughly 850 spirit for every 500 intellect?” No it means that for each point of spirit you gain the equivalent of 0.0849 MP5 from holy concentration. Similar story for intellect.
If your current set up is working for you then I wouldn’t change. This is a guide to how to gear, not a prescription. Other methods of gear selection can also work as Shwaig pointed out below.
I’m a little surprised you are having no mana issues and you are top healer in ToGC25. You are undergeared really for ToGC25. In fact you have no ToGC25 achieves and no ToGC25 gear, so i’m a little skeptical that you have, “been the top healer in my guild while running TotGC25 for some time”.
You said – “what Iām trying to figure out is how much spirit and intellect to I need to have?”
If what you have is working for you. And it sounds like it is. Then dont change it.
You said – “Can I get away with having no spirit at all? or no intellect at all?”
I don’t think you can. Intellect determines mana pool and spirit both works on regen and converts at a 4:1 ratio to spell power for holy. Plus actually gearing like that would be impossible given the way gear is itemised.
@Hanzi – Its curious to me that some holy priests are stacking intellect over spirit. Spirit, because of the way Holy Concentration works, and the 4:1 conversion to spell power makes more sense. Spiritual Guidnce is a great talent for improving throughput, i’m surprised more holy priests aren’t taking advantage of it.
re:metagem – it is of course personally choice, but my opinion is here: https://bobturkey.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/insightful-earthsiege-vs-ember-skyflare-diamond/
5% crit from boomkin was excluded because we do not always have that available.
Fight duration is a bit of a case of personal preference. I had it set to 8 minutes briefly (same as Rawr) but changed it back as on average the fights seemed to be a bit shorter. I’m not much fussed either way.
@Shwaig – They HC calculates the total value of HC (at 100% uptime) and multiplies it by the average uptime (48% of the time). So the resulting numbers are average numbers assuming that you have about 48% HC uptime overall. This is the same concept used to calculate the value of pretty much everything which isn’t always present. Another example trinket on use/procs
I’ll try and remember to post 2:1 throughput:regen numbers whn I have access to my spreadsheets. They aren’t radically different.
If you are really interested in spirit/intellect balances look at Zusterke’s Corner (http://zusterke.orderoftheathanor.eu/).
Shwaig’s advice to Hanthion seems to be pretty good to me.
@Cam – I don’t understand your question sorry.
@Adam – No Rature is under critical rating, which is the next post.
Good comments all.
Gobble gobble.
Sorry I meant TotC, not TotGC…typo.
But yea, thanks for the replies.
I’ll be running ICC25 this evening and after taking all of this into consideration I’m going to re-socket my gear for a bit more spirit because I am very conservative with my mana (i.e. minimal heals until AoE situations) and I’d like to see if this allows me to heal more flexibly.
Cheers!
In a general “how-to disc” on my blog I linked this page, but now I wonder whether 0.6:1 ratio was the better page to link?
Is that page still applicable today, and if so is it available?
It probably wouldn’t change much for disc, I suppose.
You could still use the 0.6:1 ratio stats if you like. Changing the SP:MP5 ratio does change the balance of the stat weights a fair bit.
Hello,
I’m a holy priest with a disc offspecc
armory link = http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Lightelff
I don’t have mana issues but i wonder if my haste is too high for a holy priest. Currently 700, should i go for more SP and spirit or keep it like this? Because for fights where i need PoH its nice to have much haste because SP bonus is low.
@Bob To follow-up with Cam’s question.
“Spiritual Guidance Spirit MP5 value = SP MP5 * SG SP bonus
Spiritual Guidance Spirit MP5 value = 2.0 * 25%
Spirit MP5 value from Spiritual Guidance = 0.525”
That third line seems off. Mind you, that’s the number I got when using working with the 5SR (.95/2 + .05 = .525) but I don’t think that makes sense here.
Oops, my calc is incorrect, though it doesn’t really matter to the question. Please disregard it.
I had a post written up because the numbers ont eh following line were confusing:
“Discipline MP5 = (5% x 814) + (95% x 417) = 427”
I later realized that it’s the 417 that’s off :(.
For purposes of calculating mana regen off spirit, does it make sense to just use .525 as a base number (.05 + .95/2) as it scale linear anyway. The calc would be .525 * 814 = 407. Or is this not valid at some point (apart from changing the time spent in the 5SR)?
Another question, was Enlightenment included somewhere or would I have to add in a 1.06 scale to take that into account if I have specced for it?
Actually they are both wrong. I must have missed updating that one.
For each point of spirit on gear you actually gain 1.16 spirit due to +10% from Kings and +5% from Spirit of Redemption. So it should say:
Spiritual Guidance Spirit MP5 value = 2.0 * 25% * 1.16 = 0.58
Yes it should be 407 not 417. Yes Enlightenment, Mental Strength and Kings were all included.
[…] Originally Posted by kamaia This is not true. It used to be the conventional wisdom that MP5 was better for disc, but the regen per point of spirit scales with intellect as well. I have summarized the relationship in the graph below. Since the choice is between 5 MP5 and 10 Spirit, any value above 0.5 means spirit gives you more regen per itemization point. That is, above ~950 intelect you should be gemming for Spirit, not MP5 as disc. If that is the case then that means that Bobturkey's spirit MP5 weighting for discipline of 0.4272 is not correct? I'd love some feedback on this as I recently replaced the two SP/Spi gems in my gear with SP/MP5. Maybe two gems won't make much of a difference to my performance as disc but I really want to maximize my gear as much as possible. Also I may end up making wrong gear choices if it comes down to a MP5 vs. a spirit piece. Unfortunately my math skills leave a lot to be desired so I'm hoping someone can help me out with this question. Priest Theorycrafting for 3.3 ā Mana regeneration (Part 2) […]